Original Source: OperationRescue.org
Excerpt from article:
Commentary by Troy Newman and Cheryl Sullenger
Operation Rescue urges Calvary Chapel’s Pastor Smith to retract his advice and apologize to his listeners
Costa Mesa, CA – Pastor Chuck Smith, founder of Calvary Chapel, shocked listeners on Tuesday on his “Pastor’s Perspective” call-in radio program when he encouraged a tearful mother to abort conjoined twins.
The caller, who identified herself as “Nicki from Riverside”, indicated that her babies share a body but have two heads and that she was being pressured by her doctors to abort them due to their assessment that the babies would likely not survive the pregnancy or live beyond a day if carried to term. At no time did Nicki indicate how far advanced her pregnancy was or that her life was in danger from the pregnancy.
Choking back tears Nicki told Smith and his co-host Dan Stewart, “My heart does – never wants to have an abortion, but I don’t know what to do. I don’t know – I don’t know what direction to go to right now. I’m really praying hard and trying to believe that the Lord is going to do what He’s going to do with these two little ones, and I don’t know what to do.”
It is obvious to us, with our combined 45 years of experience working with abortion vulnerable women, that Nicki did not want an abortion but was seeking some spiritual affirmation and encouragement that would help her amidst the pressure from her secular doctors to take the lives of her innocent babies. She got none from Smith and Stewart, who told her that God would not condemn her if she chose abortion.
“It’s awfully hard to actually suggest abortion,” said Smith. “But, you know, I’m sure that, uh, in a case like this where the life expectancy is just, you know, is so bleak, and all, that I’m sure that the Lord would not condemn her if she went ahead and had an abortion at this early stage of the development of the fetus.”
Other sources mentioning this:
- Crosstalk- http://www.crosstalkblog.com/2011/02/or-pastor-chuck-smith-stuns-radio-listeners-by-encouraging-woman-to-have-abortion/
- Lighthouse Trails- http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=5814
- Christian News Wire- http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/7064816215.html
James 3
1My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3Behold, we put bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
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Thank you for having the courage to post this. So many are not willing to face the fact that there are serious problems within Calvary Chapel leadership. A blind eye is turned in the name of loyalty. But loyalty to whom? The symptoms just seem to be getting more and more dire. Unfortunately, instead of acknowledging what a horrible mistake in judgment this was, excuses will probably be made out of respect for Pastor Chuck, nevermind concern for the family who could be negatively impacted due to this ill-advised counsel.
This was a grave lapse in judgment and certainly was not Spirit-led. Yes, compassion was present, but wisdom was not in the answer given. A question of this nature which involves life and death and a personal decision by both parents, should NEVER be addressed in a call-in forum. And then to try and cover it up with an untruth is incomprehensible. At no time during her call did “Nikki” state that the pregancy was a threat to her health or life. If this does not disturb the rank and file of Calvary Chapel pastors, nothing will and it will send a clear message that an idol is occupying the seat of leadership. May God stir hearts to bring forth truth and rectify this horrible injustice.
Your comment was well said. I have been a member of Calvary Chapel for over 32 years now, and after this and the Rick Warren issue I will never go to church at any Calvary Chapels ever.
Shalom sis. Sad and tragic case of a pastor encouraging a woman to abort her baby. Talk about this, a messianic lady online I met insinuates that killing animals for food should be avoided if we can help it. I told her, Yeshua ate fish. I told her, Yeshua is God who came down to us in the Person of Messiah, and He ate meat. No go, she still had something to say.
I’m sniffing something – I do not know what it is. I do know that the new age movement promotes vegetarianism. I did a search online using sister Constance Cumbey’s name and vegetarian, she wrote a bit about the new age movement pushing vegetarianism as part of the global agenda.
Interesting link (vegetarianism & New Age) I didn’t know that. I have found when it comes to Chuck Smith people who ‘follow’ him for years feel more allegiance to him than their own Messiah. It’s sad when people gnash their teeth at me for reporting his error and attack me personally rather than do their own investigation as to who Chuck Smith really is. I’ve been beat up this week on twitter for it. More than I am hurt by them, I hurt for these people. I pray that they come to the truth of their own idolatry of this man and repent soon. Delusion is a wicked and slippery slope. The Global Agenda, the NWO, the doctrines of demons, are all coming to fruition and it’s becoming harder and harder for people to hear truth.
Hi sis,
I just saw this reply. As a friend tends to say, in the end, we shall see who are of us, and who are not.
Fear of the Holy One keeps us from going astray. Taking up our cross to follow Him, is laying down our will, to follow Him.
I’m glad you research all these things. The new age movement is evil. The elite are doing everything they can to keep us down including trying to bring in islam to kill off Christians. Keep up your research.
Personally I can not see what and why the large body of Christians who are condemning Pastor Smith for his comments to this poor lady. How many of these folks would wish to preside over a two headed baby and the resulting life and pain it would suffer with being here. If a child dies it goes to be with the Lord. I can not imagine when a choice is there to allow such a human to come into this world with this very bleak condition, which is not normal for any human to live with. I am positive that if these two babies were asked what they would do, they would both choose to go to be with the Lord now, before being born with this unlivable condition. Christians sin every day. Many sin without their hearts even being torn by their sins. This poor lady who has a family that needs her should not be made by the body at large to feel it is some type of unforgivable action to do the best thing for this unusual type of conception. I know that God will not hold it against her if she chooses to abort this terrible situation and give these two minds yet unborn relief and to be with God as soon as possible. Think of the pain they might suffer while alive out side the womb, so that the rest of the body of Christ can feel better. Aborting normal, healthy children is a terrible thing to commit but this is a very un-normal state of affairs and it would be best in the long run for her to abort this tragically formed fetus’s . She will be forgiven if it is a sin for her situation and the babies will be with the Lord and happy. All sins are equal, so no one should be making a big scene about this as most of these complainers sin more than they confess to or worse than what this lady could do in this situation. Chuck Smith said what is correct and logical to say under these awful conditions. > Stop judging by the letter of the law and understand that the intent of the law is to stop people from aborting their sexual mistakes and failed responsibilities.
Scripture that comes to my heart at this time goes something like this…
“For I know your works…and I will praise You…I am fearfully and wonderfully made…”
Let us not forget Who created these babies. And I don’t suppose to know the answer to all things…but this I do know. First and foremost I have never come across the word “fetus” in the Bible. I have read many a scripture that reads “you knew me before You wove me in my mother’s womb” As well as… it seems the babe’ in Elizabeth’s womb leaped when Mary carrying our “Messiah” Jesus in her womb entered the room…not the “fetus” in either one!
Could it be the LORD Himself has created these babies with a mission as they journey here throughout their families, the medical “community” (I use that term loosely) or the stranger (alien) passing by. For His thoughts are not our thoughts…nor His ways our ways…how do any of us even know that He Himself just might take these precious little lives before they even breath their first breath here upon earth. We don’t know…
And then to read words penned…that perhaps there is some kind of sin in this dear lady’s life…here’s a thought for you…perhaps it is some kind of sin in your life…and the LORD God…Creator of the heavens and the earth…God and Father of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…is using this very thing to bring you to your knees. Just a thought.
Already…He has spoken to my heart in this as well as given me a reminder of just how ungrateful I can be from day to day with the blessings that He bestows upon my path. How blessed I and many have been with what we perceive to be our perfectly formed babies…the list goes on for all eternity.
Why can’t we all just come along side this mother and encourage her in the things of the LORD…and help her from day to day. Pray with her for the LORD’s will to be done. Trust in His mighty hand to save. Give thanks for the good of the heart and the knowledge of those who will be apart of a very special team and journey. I only wish there was a way to connect with her…since I don’t know her I will pray for her and the days to come.
One more thing…and I pray not to stumble anyone…
As far the Calvary Chapel side of life…one’s allegiance is to our “Abba” in heaven…He is our “Teacher”…our “Master”…our “High Priest”…our “Good Shepherd”…not any man here on earth…or any religion within a religion…denominational or non-denominational.
There is Life after Calvary Chapel…there is Truth to be sought…and there is healing in the “Wings” of our precious Savior.
“How many of these folks would wish to preside over a two headed baby and the resulting life and pain it would suffer with being here… I can not imagine when a choice is there to allow such a human to come into this world with this very bleak condition, which is not normal for any human to live with. I am positive that if these two babies were asked what they would do, they would both choose to go to be with the Lord now, before being born with this unlivable condition… Aborting normal, healthy children is a terrible thing to commit but this is a very un-normal state of affairs and it would be best in the long run for her to abort this tragically formed fetus’s.”
Your argumentation solely focused on what (in your opinion) was convenient for the mother and her unborn children; your views expressed here represent a pragmatic ethic. Though pragmatism is more intricate, a simple way to understand it is, “it is not what is right or wrong, but what is practical.” The pragmatist would argue that the end justifies the means; because the raising of these children will be difficult it is ok to kill them. Mark are you able to be consistent in this philosophy? What if my family and I lived near a nuclear reactor and over the course of 10 years one of my daughters grew a gigantic tumor on her head. Because of the way this tumor surrounded her brain she was not able to have it surgically removed. Suppose that she received so much grief from school kids (you know how mean they can be) that she wanted to commit suicide. Would it be ok for my wife and me to take her life? My assumption is that you would say that it is not right in those circumstances. What is the difference? One is born and one is yet unborn?
The force of your argument was on the practical consideration, namely that of having to deal with the complications associated with conjoined twins. I will not for a moment even attempt to argue the difficulty and heart ache that family will endure if the mother decides to proceed with the birth of her children. But Mark, the question that you have to ask is, “what is your standard of morality?” Whatever causes the least amount of pain in your estimation? Whatever is comfortable? Whatever is easy? Once again that is the ethic of a pragmatist. Murder is murder no matter the practical considerations. God is the standard for morality.
What confers significance to human life is that we are made in the image of God. The image of God is not found in our physical bodies, but in our other capacities; such as our potential for relationship, self expression, intellect, morality, etc. God places a premium on human life; In Genesis, before the Mosaic Covenant (i.e. before the “law”), God made a covenant with Noah and said, “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (9:6 NASB). God says the penalty for murder is death.
“If a child dies it goes to be with the Lord.”
When you use this premise to support a family who tragically loses a child it can bring comfort and peace, but if you are using it to support killing a baby you are ill advised. If we are to follow this type of logic, why not support abortion and kill as many babies as we can? The murdered babies can escape the rigors of life, the chance of going to hell, and go immediately to the Lord. Why stop there? Let’s all just start committing suicide to be with the Lord.
“Christians sin every day. Many sin without their hearts even being torn by their sins. This poor lady who has a family that needs her should not be made by the body at large to feel it is some type of unforgivable action to do the best thing for this unusual type of conception. I know that God will not hold it against her if she chooses to abort this terrible situation and give these two minds yet unborn relief and to be with God as soon as possible… She will be forgiven if it is a sin for her situation and the babies will be with the Lord and happy. All sins are equal, so no one should be making a big scene about this as most of these complainers sin more than they confess to or worse than what this lady could do in this situation.”
In a legal sense all sins are equal; James says that, “Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it” (James 2:10-11). However the practical result of sin varies according to the sin committed. Wayne Grudem, professor at Phoenix Seminary, expands this point, “…some sins are worse than other in that they have more harmful consequences in our lives and in the lives of others, and, in terms of our personal relationship to God as Father, they arouse his displeasure more and bring more serious disruption to our fellowship with him“ (Systematic Theology pg 502). This can be seen easily in day to day life with little reflection. There is ample evidence of the psychological suffering that mothers who underwent abortion endure. The suffering is more intense than say a time in their life when she lost her temper with one of her children. There are many verses in the Bible that speak of degrees of sin: Ezekiel 8:6, 13, 15; Matthew 5:19; 3:23; John 19:11, etc. I can hardly think of a sin with less serious practical considerations than murdering your unborn children.
Furthermore, just because we have the promise of God’s forgiveness does not mean that we should sin. Paul talks about this point, “Should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more kindness and forgiveness? Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it… since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does this mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! Don’t you realize that whatever you choose to obey becomes your master? You can choose sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God and receive his approval” (Romans 6:1-2, 15-16 NLT). I believe that if you support someone in their sin you become partakers in its guilt. Is this something that you are prepared to own up to?
My 2 cents worth and support of News4theMasses.
If Mark is a Christian, I am aghast at his reply to you. Seriously is the word. I don’t presume to sit here and judge him based on what he has said, but oh vey, how could those words have come out of a heart that professes to love God?
There is a girl I know online, she was born blind and with a body that today needs medication everyday. She is against abortion even though the child born would be handicapped, and says that she is glad she was not aborted. There have been many cases of handicapped people who turned out OKAY in the end, and say they were glad they did not get aborted.
If Mr. Mark is an avid follower of pastor Chuck, therein lies the danger because if this pastor is leading people down a path away from God’s Word, his fans will be too enamored by him to break away from heresy to fear the Living God. As I read the below contents, I thought of the child sacrifices done to satan during the ancient biblical days. That demon called moloch. Abortion brings this to mind.
We are to show mercy. God shows us mercy, we should do no less. An unborn human baby is literally at the mercy of adults.
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the L_RD men depart from evil. – Proverbs 16:6
That is just one verse from the entire bible, and not taken out of context. Being led by the Holy Spirit of God, one would know that He desires mercy, and not sacrifices. The sacrifices of the wicked are an abomination to God. Do what is right in His eyes, and then go and offer your sacrifice. The sacrifice is there, the blood has been shed, it is not a doorway for us to go ahead and do the unthinkable. We grive the Father’s heart when we sin against our fellow man.
People need to be reading the bible and seeking God instead of following man.
Jesus said, if we so much as hate our brother in our heart, we committ murder. The law of “thou salt not murder” has not been abolished – Messiah Jesus explained to us the principles and in fact, lifted the bar higher than we thought. We have no excuse. He closed up the loopholes in men’s thinking. So if you think you have been “set free” to fulfill the lusts of your flesh, you think wrong. In the end, the books shall be opened and we will all be judged by the books. What are those books? The laws of God. If you have been truly set free by God in His Messiah, then you are indeed free, unless you thought you could do a little sin here, a little sin there, and maybe God would not see it…then you have just placed yourself back “under the law”.
Can we expect a forthcoming apology from Chuck Smith? This promotion of abortion automatically shows wordly thinking, but this is just one aspect of Chuck Smith’s false teachings and ecumenicalism. I posted on this matter too on my blog. There are many conjoined twins that they have even presented on TV as being able to enjoy life, even with severe challenges.
http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2011/02/chuck-smith-abortion-controversy.html
What gets me is how these pastors never apologize, but too many of the people in the pews are more focusing on defending everything they do and say.
With this one he got it wrong, definitely.
M. Pakés, there have been some excellent rebuttals to your support of Chuck Smith’s suggestion that abortion would be appropriate in this situation. You are advocating the age-old lie of Satan that man can be God. No man has the right to take a life that God has created. We don’t know His purposes.
Also, Smith misused the text about the woman being forgiven for her sin of adultery. This was not only inept, but it misapplied the Word of God. Is he implying that this woman sinned and that caused her to conceive such a child? Of course not, but it makes about as much sense as him using this example from the Bible.
It amazes me that people are willing to turn a blind eye to this and even defend it. They should reconsider; this makes them an accomplice to a lie.
You people can condemn and say all you wish about how wrong it is as if you speakers are any better than a Christian who does have an abortion. We are all sinners and the sooner you see that the more help you could be to those who’s sins are keeping them from knowing the real forgiveness in Christ. I am not for abortion, no matter what you think. But, I do know what it is like to live with a terrible condition in your life that makes you wish you were not born. That may be a sin to feel that way, but physical hardships in life can do that to a Born again Christian. I know the difficultly of living in a unlivable condition. I make no excuses nor do I blame God. But seeing this situation from my point of view in life, I would choose to go be with the Lord before I was born if I had a way to tell my mother. I have also seen some twins in this condition and there is no way anyone is going to convince me that it is something to choose to live with if there is a method to avoid it. I am speaking from a human point of view, not a Bible point of view. Most of you so called Christians do not live a perfect life and you should be ashamed to condemn Chuck Smith or how he used his position or scripture. No one is perfect. I am also not a life long follower of Chuck Smith. I am just a human being who know more about this type of life style & pain in life than any of you other writers seem to who speak from your lofty positions as if none of you sin or hurt our Lord with the faults in your own lives. Shame on you. . .
None of you will need to be concerned of what it is like to take care of two minds in one body which may not live very lone anyway. You do not know the pain of such things and I am sure if most of you were suffering with this type of pain you would do anything to escape it once you were experiencing it. Those who are so high in the Spirit and sit above the rest of us, well, God bless you for your predicament. Those of us who live in the real life of hurt and pain, will just need to keep having our faith tested each day in patience and asking God to forgive us as we fail daily in our walk. But for me, knowing how life is on the down side of being healthy and ok in body, I would not condemn this lady if she should choose to end it and allow her two in one body child to go to be with the Lord without making her feel any worse because of your judgmental attitudes.
None of you have any real understanding of what it is like to live with what she has to deal with. She needs to be assured of the forgiveness the Lord will extend to her should she choose what you all condemn. The Lord God is not going to fall off of HIS Throne if she does end it. But she does need the hand of forgiveness if her choice is not to take on the task of living with this unbearable situation, not to mention the danger to her own life if she goes full term. In my past I have known living beings in this same condition who hated God for what they thought He did to them. If I were her, I would not make my children go through this eternal danger to them. Sorry if I offend any of you or make you judge me as not having faith or trust in the Lord. None of you know what I live with or go through, so you really should mind your own affairs and do your best to please God between your failures that you all do each day. Your best actions would be to Trust God and pray for her to do what God puts into her heart and not what you all think is best.
“You people can condemn and say all you wish about how wrong it is as if you speakers are any better than a Christian who does have an abortion.”
Just because we say something is morally wrong does not imply that we are morally superior. As Christians we have an obligation to warn people if they are going to commit an action that transgresses God’s moral law. James speaks on this point, “My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins” (5:19-20). Elsewhere Paul says:
“All Scripture is… profitable for… reproof [and] for correction…” (2 Timothy 3:16).
“… reprove [and] rebuke… with great patience and instruction” (2 Timothy 2:4).
“Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light” (Ephesians 5:11-13).
So it is not inherently wrong to say something is sinful or to tell someone they are committing a sin. We just have to do it at the proper time, proper way, and with the proper motivation. Obviously this will be different for each situation.
Let me ask you this. What if some guy called in to that same show and reported that he wanted to molest his two year old daughter? Would you have the same response (don’t judge)? Or would you say that it is wrong? If you would say that it is wrong then you would be guilty of the very same thing that you are charging us with: that of being judgmental. These are parallel situations; the difference is you probably don’t struggle with lust towards little girls, but other people do. Should we then not say it is wrong to molest little girls because we can’t comprehend the personal struggles they have? If God says something is wrong, we then can also say it is wrong whether we personally struggle with it or not.
“We are all sinners and the sooner you see that the more help you could be to those who’s sins are keeping them from knowing the real forgiveness in Christ.”
What is better, having the forgiveness of God for aborting your baby? Or, not needing the forgiveness of God because you did not abort your baby? Obviously, “all have fallen short of the glory of God” and need God’s forgiveness to go to heaven. But that does not mean that sin doesn’t matter because we have God’s forgiveness. God has to forgive us only when we have done something to offend His character. I would rather not offend Him in the first place. For example, my wife is very forgiving and would probably forgive me if I were to cheat on her, but wouldn’t it be better if I did not cheat on her in the first place so that she would not have to forgive me? Let us not take God’s forgiveness for granted. If I cheated on my wife (knowing that she was going to forgive me) I only show how little I truly love her. If we break God’s laws purposefully we only show how little we value Him compared to ourselves.
“Most of you so called Christians do not live a perfect life and you should be ashamed to condemn Chuck Smith or how he used his position or scripture.”
One reason for our outrage is of course because we believe that abortion is murder, (even if it is forgivable). A second reason for our outrage is because he is a pastor/teacher and founder of a very large Christian movement, which means that he has a lot of influence over a large body of believers. James says, “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment” (3:1). Yes, we all make mistakes, but leaders are held to a higher standard by us and by God. We don’t want him to burn in hell for what he said; we want him to recant so to repair some of the damage that he has done.
“Your best actions would be to Trust God and pray for her to do what God puts into her heart and not what you all think is best.”
One of the great things about the Bible is that it contains the revealed will of God. For example, I don’t have to pray to God if it would be ok for me to cheat on my wife, because the 7th commandment forbids it (Exodus 20:14). He already told me in the Bible. Murder is wrong (Exodus 20:13) even if there are good intentions. So it’s not about what we think is best. It is what God has already said is best: not to murder.
My comment is that Calvary Chapel preacher will pay for this if she has or had an abortion. Sometimes we just need to trust God and lots of time when doctors say “Well, they’re going to die soon” it’s not true and they live for 50 more years. What if those twins could do something wonderful in this world and this jerk told her to MURDER those children and she did because she was looking for spiritual affirmation and what she got was the voice of satan telling her to MURDER her twins? This is wrong. Any Christian who knows God KNOWS that He is not ok with murdering the innocent!
Let me also say this! I was three years old when my mom was pregnant with my brother. She was told having him would either kill her, or kill the child….. or kill both of them. She was told to have an abortion. She had cervical cancer. BUT, instead of killing her unborn son she decided to let God take care of her and the baby, she did not have an abortion. It’s scary, yes! But they are both alive, my mom does not have cancer today and all is well. Every womans life is threatened with the birth of a child, so I don’t want to hear “Well, her life was threatened so it’s ok to have an abortion.”
May the Lord richly bless you for speaking out here and taking a stand! So many have read this post and heard the video and rather than call this man into account they click away or pretend they don’t know so as to avoid controversy. You and your family are a testament to God’s mercy and sustaining grace! Give your mom a hug and let her know her bravery is a testimony of Jesus Christ!
Thank you mijadedios. God bless you.
At no time was Pastor Chuck telling her to get an abortion. She wanted to know what was the right thing to do and he said that if SHE chose to abort the baby due to her situation that Jesus knows her heart and wont condem her based on the circumstance. He never said again to “GO ABORT” the baby.
Matthew 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
Jesus said to follow him not man. Why? Becuase man makes mistakes or sometimes you may disagree with the
I was listening to the lady call in with her question on that day and at no time did I feel that Pastor Chuck was oking Abortiong. He was showing Nikki GRACE, LOVE and MERCY as Jesus showed us to do. He was letting her know that Jesus knows her heart and sees her hurting inside over the issue.
John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
I will keep Nikki in prayer and Pastor Chuck.
God Bless you Nikki and God Bless you Pastor Chuck.
that is ‘ok-ing’ abortion.
First let me say that I am no fan of Chuck Smith.
I am among his biggest critics.
HOWEVER, I listened to this abortion call and I considered the lady’s issue a TRUE MEDICAL DILEMMA.
True Medical Dilemmas exist where a decision HAS to be made and there is NO good outcome.
I don’t think anyone has the right to second guess someone else’s decision in a TRUE Medical Dilemma.
YOU’RE decision might have been different…. but you have NO RIGHT to speak ill of someone else’s decision with a TRUE MEDICAL DILEMMA.
God will judge the heart motives someday but we’ve no place to judge here.
THESE are exactly the issues that the most abused phrase in the Bible is speaking to.
IE: Judge not that ye be not judged.
Chuck did make mistakes in his response:
1. Basically he equated Nicky with the lady caught in sin, and told her to just go ahead and sin and count on God’s grace. ????
My view is that Nikki WAS NOT/IS NOT in sin, therefore this scripture does not apply.
2. Considering the EARLY STAGE of the development softened the sin. ?????
This sounds like Chuck is buying in to some of the proaborter’s arguments and the
governments arguments supporting abortion. In fact, abortion is murder at any stage…
barring a TRUE MEDICAL DILEMMA.
To be fair, Chuck was on a radio show which is pretty much a shoot from the hip affair.
He is not 25 years old… the brain gets less reliable as we get older so I would have to say he simply fumbled this one.
Still, the above two points are troublesome.
Perhaps this muddled thinking speaks to some understanding of Chuck’s gross errors in the handling/supporting of Iglesias in his pedophile acts at Raul Ries’s CC.
The handling of THIS SIN will very likely END Calvary Chapel.
This sin is exactly equivalent to abortion…… it is essentially murder.
The handling of Iglesias was a horrible horrible abuse of power that enabled a pedophile to continue his destroying of lives….. IE murder of souls.
WHY would the leadership of CC put themselves and the organization in such a position?
I mean this is as bad or WORSE than the Catholic Pedophile Priests Scandal!
I’ve thought long and hard about this and have come up with only one theory:
HE WHO HAS BEEN FORGIVEN MUCH LOVES MUCH.
Many of the Early Boys in CC are CULT LEADERS… that is… they use cult control techniques to control/abuse their congregations.
I watched MY former pastor, the EARLIEST of the Early Boys, “hang in there” with pedophiles when EVERYONE ELSE wanted to boot them. (Pedophiles kept pushing their boundaries.)
Why?
Being Bible teachers, they all know that HE WHO HAS BEEN FORGIVEN MUCH… LOVES MUCH.
A pedophile who is repeatedly forgiven will likely become a hard core blind supporter of the forgivee…. the CC pastor. For this sort, THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS thinking will come easily.
Cult leaders WANT and NEED hardcore blind supporters… they are necessary to implementing certain “messy tasks” in CULT LEADING.
Oops…. guess I’m hijacking the thread!
This caller NEVER stated that her life was in danger in having this child.
Nikki never said what the implications were but there were implications….
and there are implications other than death.
Nikki also never stated her life was not in danger.
Perhaps if I heard/you heard more of her case we COULD pass judgement.
With the information I have, I’ll not pass judgement.
I don’t believe anyone is passing judgement here on the caller; we are all disturbed by the suggestion of a so called pastor to have an abortion, based on the limited information he got. When I hear the caller I hear a woman desperate for her idea of a godly man to encourage her to pursue life. I don’t hear a woman who wants permission to have an abortion at all. But it doesn’t matter what I think or how I feel about the call. The point here is to look at the facts:
*Nikki called concerned, scared, confused by her secular doctors who tell her to abort
*Chuck Smith without any medical or professional training in obstetrics, psychology, or even knowledge of sound doctrine made a suggestion for an abortion and stated that he “knows” God would not “condemn” her for having one. He spoke too soon and should have not offered any laymen advise but rather prayed with her because that’s all he’s qualified to do in this situation. Chuck Smith does not have to “explain her options” as Don Stewart suggests. This was a political move and since this sad display of ungodliness in this “pastor” we’ve heard Chuck Smith make even more outrageous claims on his radio show. Maybe it’s time for Chuck to retire to his porch since he can’t control what he says on the radio.