Chuck Smith Jr Writes N4TM: Chuck Smith Jr’s Response to Being a “Straight Ally For Gay Christians” among other things

Chuck Smith Jrchuck smith, jr.

Remarkable! It was interesting to read that I am “an advocate” for homosexual Christians. This is an example of either inadequate research or selective reporting–either one, in my opinion, demonstrates a lack of integrity. In that same video interview posted above, I explicitly stated that “I am not an advocate” for gay and lesbian Christians.

Have I sat “in the company” of homosexuals in conferences without delivering a word of judgment against them? Yes, I have. I went to them the way Jesus came into the world, not to condemn, but to save. And as He was sent into the world, so He sent His disciples into the world (Jn. 3:17; 17:18; 20:21). How many of these conferences have you been invited to come and speak? If none, how are do you plan on getting the gospel to gays and lesbians? Do you care whether they hear the gospel? Is it not your calling or concern?

You are misinformed regarding my contact with Roman Catholicism. I have never advocated for, or endorsed Thomas Merton. However, if he said something quotable that glorified God, I would not shrink back from quoting him. If Paul was comfortable quoting pagan poets and prophets, why should I avoid quoting someone whose beliefs I do not fully share? (Acts 17:28; Titus 1:12) There is a well-known fallacy of logic, argumentum ad hominem, which states that if you discredit the person, you discredit his argument, which in this case is tantamount to saying “Thomas Merton” was a Trappist monk, so everything Thomas Merton said was wrong.” People who may be wrong about everything else can still be right on one thing. As John Warwick Montgomery, conservative Christian theologian and apologist, said, “It’s hard to be wrong about EVERYTHING.”

By the way, I miss the days when to be a Christian apologist one had to be well-versed in logic, theology, philosophy, history, and original languages, as well as have an excellent knowledge of the entire Bible. John W. Montgomery is one of the few well-known apologists who are the real deal.

I have never advocated Roman Catholic dogma. My understanding of “contemplative prayer” is not drawn from Roman Catholicism, but from the Scriptures and especially the Psalms–which have been the source of hymns, prayer, and spiritual songs of God’s people for millennia. I have read many Roman Catholic authors including John Cassian, St. Augustine, Anselm, and Thomas Aquinas (most bonafide Christian apologists have also read Anselm, Augustine, and Aquinas). Furthermore, my reading list includes several works by Russian and Greek Orthodox theologians. I have also read The Institutes of John Calvin (who was a great fan of Augustine and quotes him frequently) and a host of other theological works and biblical commentaries by evangelical and fundamentalist authors. Martin Luther was also deeply interested in contemplative spirituality and strongly endorsed the work “The Theological Germanica.” But the only books I read without filters are the sixty-six books of the Bible.

On the other hand, many Protestants have been misled by anti-Catholic authors who have invented historical connections between Roman Catholicism and ancient pagan religions (such as Alexander Hislop’s “Two Babylons”). Not that I am defending everything that Roman Catholics around the world believe or do in the name of their religion. Nevertheless, I would not be surprised if the percentage of Roman Catholics who actually please God by walking with Him every day is at least as high as the percentage of Protestants who do so. Although I personally disapprove of praying to saints, I cannot believe that it is any worse than self-righteousness and hypocrisy.

You are wrong about me (actually, the church where I was Senior Pastor at the time) being “kicked out” of CC on the grounds that we were “emergent.” By the way, mijadedios, your “dove club” label is an uncharitable stab, to say the least, despite how deeply you feel CC deserves your ridicule. Anyway, that misinformation, sadly, came from my Uncle Paul. On at least three different occasions I carefully explained to him why neither I nor CBC were emergent. But he wasn’t listening to me because he had another agenda. Since he seemed uncomfortable in my meeting with him and had difficulty getting around to the point for wanting to see me, I asked him if it would be easier for him if I just removed CBC from the CC affiliation. He was instantly relieved and said answered, “Yes.”

Paul and a couple of his buddies at CCOF (during that period of time) had heard rumors about me and CBC that they never sought to substantiate for themselves by contacting me or visiting the church. They led a campaign to malign our work and to get us removed from the CC affiliation. I did not resist them, because it was something that mattered more to them than it did to me. Years ago, God impressed upon my heart that He is not into “brand” names, that the only name He endorses is the name above all names–that of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

One of my uncle’s friends went on to slander me on blogs and in print, accusing me of spending a sabbatical in a monastery (I didn’t) and returning to my church to hang icons so that people could pray to them (never happened). There were thousands of people who attended CBC over the years, so it would be easy enough to find just one person to corroborate that author’s claim. But no one ever will, because I have never believed in praying to icons and never taught anyone to pray to icons.

As far as Lonnie goes, why don’t you talk to people who knew him in order to get at the truth? Why do you think you can learn everything you need to know from video clips, articles, and other blogs? Do you let other people read the Bible for you or do you read it for yourself? Do you take just bits and pieces of the Bible and dismiss the rest? If you don’t trust others enough to let them tell you what the Bible says, why do you give them your full trust when it comes to other Christians–Christians you could easily contact or whose close friends and family are reachable? Why are you so quick to find flaws in others and then rush to condemn them? Really! Do you believe this pleases God? In fact, among the things that God hates are “A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.” (KJV, on David’s behalf–my first Bible and the version I read through cover-to-cover before reading through any other. It is also my dad’s favorite and that which he most frequently quotes verbatim.)

Lonnie did not consider himself a homosexual and he believed that homosexual sex was a sin. He never endorsed homosexuality. When I first heard of his past (i.e., prior to his conversion to Jesus Christ), he had renounced it and considered himself a “new creature in Christ.” He was married to Connie at the time and he certainly did not continue “to act out openly in gay relationships throughout his life” (I find this statement of N4TM’s especially offensive, because it is an outright lie). I witnessed times when Lonnie prayed over other people that they would be delivered from their temptation to engage in homosexual sex.

Lonnie and I did not remain friends through the years, mostly because we got on two different tracks in ministry with two different emphases. I was not his greatest fan, but I didn’t criticize him either. After all is said and done, Lonnie was a child of God who struggled.

What do we call it when someone attributes motives to another person without having an accurate (or even close to accurate) understanding of the details? Again, it is remarkable to me that Christians behave the way they do, assuming that because they’re convinced their doctrine is more orthodox than another person’s, they are justified in making up stories or motives about that person. What happened with our weekly meetings in the Fromm’s home was no “publicity stunt.” A few corrections:

Chuck Fromm is the publisher of Worship Leader Magazine, not Leadership (Journal). He did not “found” Maranatha! Music, but he did run it for approximately thirty-five years.

Chuck and Stephanie have had many Bible studies in their home. It was a neighbor’s complaint about our meetings there that involved the city government, which imposed a fine on the Fromms for hosting weekly meetings. The Fromm’s initial attempts to meet with the city government and work this out were ignored and then shut down. That is when the Pacific Justice Institute got involved (I don’t know what the ACLJ is, but I certainly don’t have access to it–or to the ACLU). The lawyers with the Pacific Justice Institute defend the rights of churches all over the U.S. (and were also strong proponents of Prop. 8). They had won a similar case in San Diego county the previous year. They took the issue to the press and within a few weeks the city issued an apology, admitted that their initial response to our meetings was too aggressive, promised to review the law on their books (prohibiting weekly meetings in homes), and the whole thing was quickly settled out of court. It’s true that the Pacific Justice Institute was interested in carrying the case further, hoping to get a landmark decision in a higher court, but that wasn’t what we wanted. In fact, we had already moved our Bible study by the time the city submitted its apology. If it had been a publicity stunt, we certainly would have carried it further. However, we never exploited the media attention that arrived at the Fromm’s front door and I never consented to an interview. From the start, I wanted peace with the city.

Good Grief, mijadedios! I don’t know what else to say, except that it’s simply rotten of you to glibly refer to this ordeal as a publicity stunt. For what purpose would we do such a thing? What got publicized? The name of our small community of believers was never mentioned. If you had any idea of what the Fromm’s suffered from this whole thing or if you had even a meager understanding of their love for the Lord Jesus Christ and devotion to His people, I doubt you would smugly dismiss this unhappy season of their lives as a publicity stunt. However, God who works all things together for good, used this experience to introduce the Fromm’s to city hall and they are now on good terms with the city’s leaders. In fact, Chuck Fromm is friends with the Mayor who is also a born again Christian.

Yes, I’ve sat in the radio station with my dad a few times to answer questions on Pastor’s Perspective over the last couple of years. Each time, it was at Dad’s request when Don Stewart was out of town. Whatever it may mean to you that my dad asked me to be a guest on his show, please present to me one instance when an answer I gave contradicted the clear teaching of the Bible. If you can prove that I misinterpreted the Scriptures, I will return to this blog site, apologize, and change my view. If you cannot, then why make a big deal about me going on the air with my father? Also, if you discover that I provided a biblical answer to someone that reflected both a good understanding of God’s word and compassion for the caller, would you consider apologizing to me?

unhihodedios

N4TM’s response:

I think the above, “unhihodedios,” was an attempt to say I’m not a child of God. Mija de Dios means Daughter of God. *It just occurred to me that this was Chuck Jr signing ‘Un hijo de dios’ translation: “A child of God.” Sorry, I don’t speak spanish so it took me a while to figure that one out.* I appreciate all you have to say here and I’m grateful to hear from you. It is more than I’ve heard from anyone I’ve written about. I have a lot to consider in what you are saying above and will take time to read through over and over and truly understand and discern the obvious aggravation from my accusations from the truth you are trying to convey. I’m glad you took the time to address the issues I brought up not just in the “Straight Ally for Gay Christians” piece I wrote, but you are also, very clearly, reading and addressing many posts I’ve written on Calvary Chapel including posts on Chuck From and Lonnie Frisbee. May I say that I do not harbor any personal hatred for you or even your father for that matter. What I do find heart wrenching and discouraging is the false teaching that’s been promoted for years, the lies that have been perpetuated, the people who have been used and abused by the CC system and much much more. But I am not about “Discrediting” or “Slandering” you. I was calling it as I see, yes with the limited information I have that I gather online, through hours of video, transcripts, personal experience, etc. Again I say, “Thank You,” and I will consider all the things you present here. I may take time to edit this reply after reading through your comment more carefully or I may chose to leave the issue alone, it depends on how the Lord leads.

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50 comments

  1. Very odd how he copped to the “protestant” thing, which really is just a label created by catholicism. I’m not a “protestant”. There were no catholics or protestants among the first Christians. They would have all rejected catholicism, had it existed at that time. He does sound like a catholic to me, and I know you are being prayerful in your response to him, but you have to do that. It’s your blog. I don’t have to respond in the way you did (and of course you can remove my comment if you want to). But he sounds like a catholic man to me, defending them all the while pretending to not defend them. And catholicism is a false gospel that leads to hell. There is nothing in catholicism to defend. So if he realizes that catholicism has a false gospel that leads to hell, and put an anathema on the true Gospel, then he wouldn’t defend anything about it. He’d expose it. But he sounds like a catholic man, defending the catholic false religion.

  2. I’m surprised he reads this blog and Andy I agree with you. Isn’t accepting appearance at this conference make you an advocate on their side? I think that speaks for itself. Even Chuck Smith sr. and Brian Broderson believe Catholics and Christians are “basically” the same. Mysticism leads to acceptance of all things. I came out of the Catholic church and will Never go back! All roads do lead to Rome, except for the Narrow one. I have found a lot of valuable information from this site, and there is plenty more out there, just do your homework.
    Thanks N4TM.

  3. N4TM,
    Thank you for your thoughtful and considerate response. I would be pleased to continue to correspond with you in this same polite and thoughtful vein.

    I, too, am concerned about the intense authoritarian structures of Calvary Chapels and affiliate churches. As far as my dad goes–he’s my dad and I love him. Moreover, the Scriptures require me to honor him and I hope to do that as long as I live.

    Andy, I didn’t invent the labels (“Protestant,” “Catholic,” “Reformed,” “Primivitist,” “Christian,” etc.), but for ordinary conversations I mean nothing other than how they are understood according to conventional usage. Am I correct in assuming that whatever label you subscribe to (if you subscribe to one) that you consider it to be the one true expression of biblical faith? If it concerns you that “Protestant” is a label created by Catholics, does it concern you that “Christian” is a label created by pagans? (Acts 11:26). If you belong to a Disciples of Christ Church, then I understand your position and what you say makes more sense.

    chuck

    1. It doesn’t matter whether Acts 11:26 was done in derision or in sincerity. It wasn’t a group that pretends to be Christian, but is not, as Catholic pretends to be Christian, but is not. False teachers are those judged within the greater “church”, and we don’t judge those outside (1 Corinthians 5:12). So you’re mixing apples and oranges.

      Furthermore, you went out of your way to defend Catholicism and a host of Catholic-based doctrine and teachers. Thus, you are the one defending Catholicism, instead of exposing it as a false gospel that leads to hell. So that tells me what you believe about these matters, and thus, you don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to doctrine, if you think Catholicism is Christian. Anyone can say Jesus, but many will call Him Lord, and still be in hell (Matthew 7:21-23).

      1. And many in Heaven will be surprised to see some of the ones they thought were not fit for the Kingdom actually there.

  4. You know… I’m finding it a little *curious* that *now* — after these subjects have been out there for sooo long — (how many months/years?) — that Chuck Jr. / somebody / anybody! finally comes along to engage the subject matter. It’s… just a little incredulous (or I’M just a little too incredulous)…

    WE know what we’ve been observing in the spiritual landscape around us. With careful observation we’ve witnessed the various pied pipers piping their faith-unifying tunes, we’ve witnessed the signing of many covenants and agreements between key players of mixed faiths, and the compromises their actions have been promoting. The Holy Spirit has revealed many deceiving influences preying upon the Body of Christ, even to the point of outright liars’ involvements, heavy involvements, in churches and groups that were for so long considered safe-houses of truth, even strongly contending for the truth once for all delivered to the brethren. It’s been stunning. A stunning display of – what can we term it but blatant apostasy, born of an increasing blindness, and slumber, that has, without question, befallen the realm the Christian world.

    Again, I find it more than odd that we should finally be hearing from someone like Chuck Jr. (wouldn’t matter who, really), after all this time…

    Let’s see… There’s a new pope in office; Rick Warren just endorsed the new pope, and a short time before that gave a glowing endorsement of the book Catholics Come Home… I’d say it’s pretty obvious which way the evangelical world is being “driven”, wouldn’t you?

    I’ve seen and read enough of Chuck Jr’s published words to know that he aligns with emergent/postmodern thought and spiritualities, and for this reason and a number of other related reasons, I would not consider him trustworthy, but rather suspect in his reasons for engaging you now.

    The words “end run” for some reason spring to mind. As in someone doing an “end run” around you/us/whoever may have read or be reading here. Kind of cleaning up loose ends so to speak. I don’t know.

    Those of us who have been following the goings on with pained hearts these past several years know what it is we’ve been witness to, the wholesale sellout of the biblical Gospel, cleverly made to look and sound like the faithful Gospel, with very clever and sometimes subtle twists and turns, additions and deletions.

    With the likes of men such as Retired Lt. Gen./Knight of Malta Jerry Boykin, “historian”/liar David Barton, “apologist”/liar Ergun Caner, and a whole company of even better known Christian cohorts in compromise of the Gospel, this attempt on Chuck Jr’s part to set the record the straight causes serious incredulity.

    The CC four-decades-long relationship/contract that Chuck Sr. and CCs have enjoyed with Paul and Jan Crouch and TBN (seen the VERY Roman Catholic insides of the TBN compound/hdqtrs?) speaks for itself.

    We are being corralled into accepting an unbiblical gospel of “love” that explicitly disobeys the clear commands and instruction of scripture, thus exposing this false “love” to be the very opposite of true, biblical love. Because true, biblical love is demonstrated by obedience and faithfulness to the word of God. What we have going on all around us is a false spirit of love and a false gospel fashioned according to it.

    Where we seem to be missing the boat is in our supplying another meaning in our understanding of God’s love and the love we are called to embrace and extend. If it is not based on, or anchored in, biblical truth, it is not love, no matter HOW good it sounds, no matter HOW good it feels, or how many people bask in the warmth of it.

    “If any man come unto you and have not the doctrine of Christ he is none of His.” The doctrine of Christ is paramount. But boy has it been undergoing a makeover! It is not enough to just name the name of Christ and believe a number of correct things about Him. The most deceptive thing about what’s going on is that it’s being done in the name of Christ, and has the appearance of honoring Him, all the while containing many departures that may not be immediately noticeable.

    The doctrine of Christ is a big subject. Jesus’ words, His instructions, His commandments can all be wielded (and are) by clever deceiving teachers to look and sound complete and biblical. But we are witnesses to a million compromises in the name of Christ. And the Lord warned us it would be so. Wise as serpents, is what He tells us to be. Snakes take in everything in the landscape surrounding them. They make their way carefully, even “wisely”, according to Jesus. So should we.

    1. That was a perfectly astute observation. All these guys are busting out of the woodwork to defend Catholicism and the new “pope”. You can see who a person is working for, by who they defend.

  5. (Funny; “snake in the grass” comes to mind as well…)

    Contending for “the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” will put us at odds with many who would call us “unloving” for doing so. (And it can be done unlovingly. We are prone to mistakes and can rush to judgment mistakenly, and must be careful of our own hearts deceiving us.)

    But I expect that even the most caring, careful, and Holy Spirit dependent person among us will be accused of being “unloving” when taking a stand for the truth and pointing out departures from it.

    I’m praying with you, Mija, as you consider your response to Chuck Jr.

    And every one of us is in constant need of examining our hearts which can deceive us, for a proper spirit, and a loving heart in living out our faith and the wisdom and instruction of the Lord.

    Still, I am plagued by reminders of the wide path that Jesus so pointedly spoke of (which really seems to describe the “gospel” that is leading the charge these days, within Christian ranks), that there would be MANY (So many…) who would walk the wide path — believing — fully expecting it to be the route to Heaven, in Jesus’ name even, only to find they were mistaken, deceived…

    “Strive to enter the narrow gate”, Jesus instructed, “for many shall TRY and not be able.” “Strive” is not the same word as “try”. It conveys some determined effort involving some real difficulty… But the Gospel of Christ and the injunction that “[we] must be born again” have some relationship to it. Some thing or things must be left at the NARROW gate in order to enter in there. And we are to STRIVE to enter in. What has gained the day, though, is a WIDE gate and BROAD way gospel… which SEEMS to lead to Christ, but doesn’t!

    The siren call of the day we are living in is to the WIDE gate and the BROAD path of a conglomerate spirituality that appears to honor Christ in some measure, without actually doing so.

    “See to it that no man deceives you” were Jesus’ first words in answer to the disciples’ questions about what would be the signs of His coming and of the end of the age.

    But we live in a day where pastors and teachers hold a Bible in one hand (literally), and the works of men (figuratively) in another. They’re drinking from so many unbiblical troughs, all while “serving Christ”, because they’re blind to the fact that these other things, which come to them in the name of Christ, are amenable to Him, when they’re not. And no one sees the problem, because men have been praising and endorsing the works of men for such a long time now, no one blinks an eye. And if their pastor or favorite Christian author or teacher endorses something, it’s accepted without question.

    These words spring to mind: that as the days wind down toward the return of Christ and the end of all things “…evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.” Does it need to get any worse than it currently is… There are a WORLD of deceiving influences, and they’ve taken up residence in every branch of Christianity.

  6. Correction: “because they’re blind to the fact that these other things, which come to them in the name of Christ, are NOT amenable to Him, though they think they are.”

  7. One more: “There are a WORLD of deceiving influences, and they’ve taken up residence [already] in every branch of Christianity.”

  8. Suprised he responded to this blog. I don’t know much about Chuck JR. but I know that Rick Warren, Greg Laurie and Brian Broderson are trying to take the sheep back to the Harlot. Chuck Smith SR. has embraced these men so guilt by association. he should be rebuking them but he’s ecumenical himself. I thank God that I left my former Calvary and that I long ago left the Harlot Catholic Church especially with scoundrels like Roger Mahoney in leadership.

    1. That’s the key… Ecumenicalism always attempts to lead true Christians to the doorsteps of Rome. And all such people doing this, should be avoided.

  9. Picking on Jr is really going after small fry – he’s not a factor in the whole CC thing. The guy who really running (ruining) things at CC is Brian Brodersen.

    1. @Sam I wasn’t “picking” on Chuck Smith Jr. I’m not holding him accountable for all that is wrong within CC as some do when they regard Brian Broderson. I don’t know anything about Brian Broderson. I don’t care to know about any of the CC Senior Pastors, because I’m no longer in CC. When I wrote my piece on Chuck Smith Jr. (2012) it was because I was disturbed by his choice to sit among “Gay Christians” and not rebuke their sin or tell them in love, however he can, that God does not condone Homosexuality and thus it is not possible that they be Born Again, and still live that lifestyle. But that’s neither here no there now, since all of America thinks being Gay is ok and the apostate church is trying to shred the Bible of any mention of sin. One other reason for my attention to Chuck Jr’s appearance at ‘Embrace’ was also to point out the greater behimoths of “Discernment” like the Light House Trails, Herescope, members of teams and networks etc., were not addressing this at all. They knew about it. One person in fact told me that this “wasn’t the first time” (Chuck Jr had spoken to this sort of group).I don’t know how true that statement is it sounded like gossip so I never included it or looked further into it. However, those “Discernment” groups who are charged with protecting the sheep when CC pastors need them to failed to alert the sheep. Perhaps because even though they once held Chuck Smith Sr to account for his relationship with Rick Warren spend most of their time deflecting for Chuck Smith Sr. It’s ok to write thousands of words against Labryinths or Contemplative prayer but to call out what goes on in any given day in the CC world is not going to happen. If you want a blog who posts exclusively on CC and Brian Broderson this is not the blog for you. I try to limit my CC writing especially because I’ve moved on with life. This is as it says above, a News site. Not a “Drudge Report” type just a nerd who reads headlines and addresses them with my own commentary. I believe I am the “small fry” in this situation.

      1. You’re 100% right, I’m just saying he’s not worth the trouble. And I too see through his reply – it is the self-justification and refusal to own up that is typical of CC. “If you’re ‘cool’ bro then you just live and let live, I don’t think you have the right spirit criticising me, let the Lord worry about false doctrine, I’m just called to be a cool-guy for Jesus …” blah blah blah etc.

      2. … by the way, my bet why you are being contacted out of the blue: a rich old Christian lady who pays Jr’s bills saw your site and was so shocked she threatened to end Jr’s gravy train … when stuff like that happens preachers will suddenly do nearly anything to keep the spigot flowing. Just a guess.

      3. @Sam ah, I see, yes that is certainly possible but I don’t know Chuck Smith Jr’s character enough to make an assumption like that. Aside from the obvious, like I mentioned, I watched his youtube videos and he seems like a real person all things considering. I don’t know him from a stranger on the street though, but he seems like someone truly trying to know Christ as opposed to others in the CC system who are solely about money. Let’s hope that is not Chuck Jr’s motive here but that he is merely trying to clear up some misgivings. On the same token he’s introducing new ones for himself so perhaps it would have been best to leave the matter alone. Chuck Fromm is his relative, so defending Chuck Fromm and the home fellowship which was where Chuck Smith Jr was the “sr. pastor” for a lack of a better word isn’t far fetched. This is a “blog” thus my opinion on matters and it was my opinion and still is that Fromm has enough resources to comply with City guidlines and rent a space that wouldn’t be subjecting him or this home fellowship to the law. It was not a case of “Christian Persecution,” (Fromm’s dealings with the City) that was the point I was trying to make clear.

  10. I want to thank the readers who are leaving comments. Yes Chuck addressed me and my writting;however, it is an opportunity for you to ask him anything that you want. I think Andy, David, Lynn, and Kayfabe have all made valid points of which (most) I agree with and couldn’t have said better myself. There are still certain points where Chuck Smith Jr. is accusing me and I’m sure I’ll have to answer for things I’ve said. I have to say I am praying about “how” to respond because the trolls abound. I know for certain I did not make my statements about Chuck Smith Sr. or Jr, Fromm, or Lonnie Frisbee with evil intent to slander them. It would be easier for all said above to believe I am just a “mean spirited” person who wants to divide the church rather than believe that they are actually responsible for their own stumbling blocks they have put around about the necks of the sheep they were once or are currently in charge of. I will say that my assessment of Lonnie being gay throughout his life was based on what I read and video I saw of a “personal friend of Lonnies” saying that he himself witnessed Lonnie partying and being with “men” and then going to CC the following Sunday to preach. Now, I did have minimal contact with a cousin I believe of Lonnie’s who was hostile and I couldn’t get much out of him/her because he/she was one of those Christian snobs who wanted to run Christianese all over me rather than answer direct questions about how CC treated Lonnie Frisbee. I felt sorry for Lonnie at the end of my research for him. It appeared like he was used and abused by CC and was cast away because he continued to “struggle” as you say in his sin. Whether or not he was a Christian who continued to engage in homosexual activities or was never a regenerate born again once and forever delivered from the old man who had his own decieving spirit cannot be determined by me who never knew him personally or as you distinctly pointed out contact with those he knew. I am not a journalist, I don’t get paid for my blog, I endorse no one, I don’t sell books, I don’t get asked to speak. I’m a literally nobody who went to CC and had a revelation of who and what CC is and came out and began to put together my findings for others who find themselves in the same space I did, knowing that something is DISTURBINGLY wrong within CC and want to learn more. I’ve watched your youtube/vimeo videos (Chuck Jr) and the same empathy I had for Lonnie I had for you. I hear you in your questioning and trying to know God and understand his word and I see a young man who is forever in the shadow of the “great Chuck Smith Sr.” who doesn’t quite believe as his father believes. I can’t imagine the position you’re in but I don’t doubt that you do love God. Why you do the things you do, in speaking at Gay “Christian” events or inviting Catholic leaning people into your life is not my forte nor do I understand why you are doing it, but you have to answer to God not to me. I do agree with Andy that your response sounded like a Catholic apologetic type answer. I agree with Lynn, why after all these years is it time to address “me” or this issue at all if not to hone in those who want reassurance that your teachings towards a wide road are “ok” and they can continue on to believe everyone is ok, rathern than take the lonelier and less traveled road. I’m still thinking about a lot that was said. Nearly 2000 words in a reply is a precedent for N4TM and I want to handle with care. (Possibly more to come or not. Why not just let the Holy Spirit reveal the truth, as it appears He is already doing.)

    1. The whole “judge not” and “you’re slandering me!” card is pulled every time there is a demand to someone to answer for false doctrines. They don’t want to answer for holding false doctrines, so they throw an accusation your way. It’s an old game, so don’t be dismayed.

  11. Chuck Jr. said:

    “By the way, I miss the days when to be a Christian apologist one had to be well-versed in logic, theology, philosophy, history, and original languages, as well as have an excellent knowledge of the entire Bible. John W. Montgomery is one of the few well-known apologists who are the real deal.”

    Matthew 23:8-10-””But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. “And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

    Chuck JR. SAID:

    “I would not be surprised if the percentage of Roman Catholics who actually please God by walking with Him every day is at least as high as the percentage of Protestants who do so. Although I personally disapprove of praying to saints, I cannot believe that it is any worse than self-righteousness and hypocrisy.”

    You can’t please God when you worship another Jesus and not the one of the Bible.
    You can’t please God when you pray to the dead
    You can’t please God when you take part in Idolatry
    You cannot please God when you worship a false religous leader such as the Pope
    You cannot please God when you support a religous system which covers up abuse of children (Roger Mahoney is one example)
    You cannot please God when you pray the “Hail Mary”

    John 14:23-”
    Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.”

    Chuck said:
    “If you don’t trust others enough to let them tell you what the Bible says, why do you give them your full trust when it comes to other Christians”

    I hope you are not inferring that rely on Men to tell us what the bible says

    John 14:26-”But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

    1. Great post, and notice his appeal to “logic, philosophy, history, etc…”, as if those things aren’t completely tainted with sin and the world. They are products of sin and the world.

      1. Sadly vain philosophy, false usually the Catholic/NWO version of history, confusing casuistry logic is taught in many false seminaries, monasteries and other places to deceive. When anyone touts those, that means they are following the traditions of men and things that as you say are the products of sin and the world.

    2. he was not inferring that you rely on men to understand Scripture… he was assuming that you go to the Source for the Word and imploring that you do the same when it comes to men, specifically, him. in other words, ask chuck jr what his beliefs are, rather than get your info from blogs.

  12. Chuck Jr. said:
    “I have never advocated Roman Catholic dogma. My understanding of “contemplative prayer” is not drawn from Roman Catholicism, but from the Scriptures and especially the Psalms–which have been the source of hymns, prayer, and spiritual songs of God’s people for millennia. I have read many Roman Catholic authors including John Cassian, St. Augustine, Anselm, and Thomas Aquinas (most bonafide Christian apologists have also read Anselm, Augustine, and Aquinas). Furthermore, my reading list includes several works by Russian and Greek Orthodox theologians. I have also read The Institutes of John Calvin (who was a great fan of Augustine and quotes him frequently) and a host of other theological works and biblical commentaries by evangelical and fundamentalist authors. Martin Luther was also deeply interested in contemplative spirituality and strongly endorsed the work “The Theological Germanica.” But the only books I read without filters are the sixty-six books of the Bible.”

    My concern is not what Martin Luther thought as he held to many fallacies or what John Calvin thought who had those who disagreed with him persecuted. These were just Men, my concern is what the WORD OF GOD says. God is not a respector of persons as we are a Royal preisthood of all Believers.

    Psalms 146:3-”Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.”

    Jeremiah 17:5-”Thus says the LORD: “Cursed i] the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD.”

  13. Interesting.. I find no love coming from this thread from anyone, only finger pointing. Remind me not to stand next to you at the Judgment.

    1. I won’t be at the judgment. Jesus died for me, so I won’t appear at the judgment at all. If a person appears at the judgment, then they will be in the lake of fire, since everyone that appears at the judgment, is sent to the lake of fire. To avoid appearing at the judgment, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior.

      And the Bible teaches to expose falsehoods and false teachings. A person that fails to do that, can’t say that they follow the Bible.

    2. By the way, love must include truth (1 Corinthians 13:6). If it isn’t true, then it isn’t God’s love. Lies and false doctrines are always hate, not love. Exposing lies and false doctrines, is an act of love.

  14. sallymae,

    Ephesians 5:11 says “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.”

    We are to expose the works of darkness and to warn the brethren of false teachings and false teachers.

  15. http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2013/04/chuck-smith-jr-and-news4themasses.html

    “In the above video he states:

    “I want the real deal whatever that means and whatever it takes to get there so I’ve been exploring..” -Chuck Smith Jr.

    I hope one day he does find the real deal in Jesus Christ not the ‘cosmic christ” of contemplative prayer and Catholicism”

    The comment about never spending a “sabbatical” in a monastery interested me. Some monastery time was admitted on his old blog. I brought that up. Does that condemn someone in itself? I certainly was in the halls of false religion BEFORE I was born again, but where is the discernment? The rest of the defenses of false religion, Catholic/Orthodox teachers is very sad. I go into more detail on the above article. Good comments here.

  16. Well . . . It seems that most people here would prefer to hear information circulated about me from each other in websites, blogs, and posts rather than hear from me. Some of you apparently feel justified in calling my motives into question and presume that they were definitely unworthy. In other words, you project possible motives onto me and then pass judgment on my motives. I can understand why you would assume the worst about me if you already believe the worst.

    At any rate, for me to waste any more of your time would not likely prove edifying for any of us.

    1. I can only speak for myself. I only responded directly to the words that you posted here, and that is, that you promoted catholicism and catholic-based false teachers, instead of exposing catholicism as a false gospel that leads to hell, which the Word of God proves it to be.

      Outside of that, I don’t personally know anything more about you than any other person on the planet. But if you refuse to expose catholicism as a false gospel, then you can’t be counted as a Bible teacher by me or people like me, but people like me are few and far between. The masses want to hear that everyone is okay as long as they mention some kind of “jesus”, regardless of the Gospel of Jesus Christ clearly defined in the Bible.

  17. I like Junior, and can attest that he is a thoughtful fellow about all of this stuff, and the people that do not usually understand or embrace him have been taught by their own funky reading of the Bible to be suspicious of anyone that does anything new or that doesn’t align with what they have been taught before from their favorite Bible teaching personality who taught them that what he said was the only way to look at things.

    Most of these people have not done deep research on much with regard to epistemology (how we come to know what we know) or else they would have come across the reality of good Christian people coming down squarely on opposite sides of biblical issues. For the majority that have broken through to that other side, you begin to see that there is much debate still ongoing about these things, and that your own particular viewpoint needs on any one thing needs to be held loosely. But the last thing you should be doing is being uncharitable towards someone who says they are doing the work of the Lord.

    You really want to know about Chuck Jr.? then go ask people around him, see what they say. You want to know what Lonnie Frisbee was all about, go ask his close friends and confidants. You want to know what anyone is like, ask some questions first…don’t read crap on the Internet.

    Are you kidding me?

    I had to laugh out loud at one comment, that Chuck Fromm suffered from the attention he received from that debacle over the church service.

    That was funny.

    You want to know about Chuck Fromm? Go ask the people around him…and be prepared…LOL…because he is one of the biggest a-holes on the planet. And they will be more than happy to tell you that.

    1. I don’t personally have to ask people what they think of Chuck Jr. Since he himself said here what he believes about the catholic false religion that leads to hell. He supports it. That’s all I personally need to know.

      1. @Andy agreed. He says and does things publicly then expects a personal visit to seek out what he meant by his own comments and actions? Sorry @CooperDuper I’m not as well read that I have to overcome all sorts of emergent/new age thinking to get back to the simple teachings of God that are in the bible. I don’t have any hangups on “Famous” men and what they believe the bible says, I just go straight to the source and I know that’s not classy and limits me on sounding hyper-enlightened as you may be used to in your circles of thinkers who think outside of the “box” (the Bible). This was never about personality and whether or not we like Chuck Jr as a personable guy. Another blog quotes Chuck Smith Jr as saying this:
        Galatians 4 blog quote Chuck Jr
        nuff said.

  18. “I don’t have any hangups on “Famous” men and what they believe the bible says, I just go straight to the source and I know that’s not classy and limits me on sounding hyper-enlightened as you may be used to in your circles of thinkers who think outside of the “box” (the Bible).”

    Well said :)

  19. Like Mija, like Andy, and like many others who frequent this site, I have come in recent years to seek my understanding of the Bible solely from the Author Himself, patient to seek His understanding of what the Holy Spirit spells out for us in the word, due in large part to the growing number of men who have proven untrustworthy as teachers. Jesus’ disciples, His people, believers in Him, have been promised the precious Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth, and I have so much reason to trust the Lord in this.

    Popular Christianity has become suspect in so many ways when compared to the written and revealed truths, wisdom, commands and instruction found in the Word of God. It’s been an incredible eye-opener discovering how far afield most of the influential voices in Christianity have come, or have been. And recognizing how far back the trend toward imaginative, unbiblical interpretation of the scriptures actually goes.

    I credit the Lord for revealing to me and my family the disarray of so much that was assumed to be biblical but which is revealed to be something other than.

    We’re living in a most curious age where the topic of faith has become a constant; BIG talk of “faith” and “people of faith” (whatever that means).

    It’s been a wild ride, watching the changes come over previously faithful pastors and teachers we previously looked up to, never expecting they would swerve so and steer us into uncharted waters, biblically speaking. (or previously believed to be faithful). All the changes in the wind, within the world and its nebulous references to “faith”, and the once-biblical faith of previously trusted Christian pastors and teachers brings to mind quite cogently the mysterious statement in God’s word referring to Christ’s return for His church, His bride: “When the Lord comes, will He find faith in the earth?” The implied answer being no, not much of the variety He’s looking for… Yet to look at all the mentions of “faith” currently abounding in the world around us, top-down from the halls of government to just about every sphere of man, and the great emphasis given to “people of faith” coming together to do great things in these last days, one would think the world was FULL of faith! Well, maybe so… but faith in what exactly? Whatever it is, it cannot be the faith that JESUS is said to be looking for: faith in His atoning sacrifice, coupled with obedient love for Him. And that alone leaves quite a bit to think about.

  20. Interesting… Chuck Smith Jr. is using Jesuitical argumentation to attack anyone who would dare question his orthodoxy, by doing what he is accusing others of doing. I smell a bit of the counter-reformation in this Loyalista. Maybe spending a little too much time at Veritas Seminary. Our ancient enemies are still our enemies, and history is replete with betrayal and persecution from the Catholic Church against Bible Believers and people who hold fast to the truth. The Word of God is divisive, and anyone who loves truth should separate from false teachers, no matter how they try to shame and discredit you. I love how they always try to paint their detractors as divisive and unloving, when the Word of God says there is nothing more loving one can do than to tell someone the truth and turn their path away from death and hell.God Bless all those whose faith is in our LORD and Saviour, Jesus Christ and are obedient to Him, to His glory!
    Amen. :)

  21. It saddens me as I’m sure it does God when his children attack one of His own (Chuck Jr.)
    I know of all the falsehoods spoken of him and it’s sad. In my opinion he was put through the wringer based on lies and also in my opinion has handled himself with dignity and respect. After hearing him speak at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa the Sunday after his father’s passing I was able to hear and see his heart and annointing. Although it’s most likely not to happen…I would have loved to see him take his father’s place and if the truth be known I bet his father would have been thrilled.

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