Tag Archives: CCCM

Chuck Smith Jr Writes N4TM: Chuck Smith Jr’s Response to Being a “Straight Ally For Gay Christians” among other things

Chuck Smith Jrchuck smith, jr.

Remarkable! It was interesting to read that I am “an advocate” for homosexual Christians. This is an example of either inadequate research or selective reporting–either one, in my opinion, demonstrates a lack of integrity. In that same video interview posted above, I explicitly stated that “I am not an advocate” for gay and lesbian Christians.

Have I sat “in the company” of homosexuals in conferences without delivering a word of judgment against them? Yes, I have. I went to them the way Jesus came into the world, not to condemn, but to save. And as He was sent into the world, so He sent His disciples into the world (Jn. 3:17; 17:18; 20:21). How many of these conferences have you been invited to come and speak? If none, how are do you plan on getting the gospel to gays and lesbians? Do you care whether they hear the gospel? Is it not your calling or concern?

You are misinformed regarding my contact with Roman Catholicism. I have never advocated for, or endorsed Thomas Merton. However, if he said something quotable that glorified God, I would not shrink back from quoting him. If Paul was comfortable quoting pagan poets and prophets, why should I avoid quoting someone whose beliefs I do not fully share? (Acts 17:28; Titus 1:12) There is a well-known fallacy of logic, argumentum ad hominem, which states that if you discredit the person, you discredit his argument, which in this case is tantamount to saying “Thomas Merton” was a Trappist monk, so everything Thomas Merton said was wrong.” People who may be wrong about everything else can still be right on one thing. As John Warwick Montgomery, conservative Christian theologian and apologist, said, “It’s hard to be wrong about EVERYTHING.”

By the way, I miss the days when to be a Christian apologist one had to be well-versed in logic, theology, philosophy, history, and original languages, as well as have an excellent knowledge of the entire Bible. John W. Montgomery is one of the few well-known apologists who are the real deal.

I have never advocated Roman Catholic dogma. My understanding of “contemplative prayer” is not drawn from Roman Catholicism, but from the Scriptures and especially the Psalms–which have been the source of hymns, prayer, and spiritual songs of God’s people for millennia. I have read many Roman Catholic authors including John Cassian, St. Augustine, Anselm, and Thomas Aquinas (most bonafide Christian apologists have also read Anselm, Augustine, and Aquinas). Furthermore, my reading list includes several works by Russian and Greek Orthodox theologians. I have also read The Institutes of John Calvin (who was a great fan of Augustine and quotes him frequently) and a host of other theological works and biblical commentaries by evangelical and fundamentalist authors. Martin Luther was also deeply interested in contemplative spirituality and strongly endorsed the work “The Theological Germanica.” But the only books I read without filters are the sixty-six books of the Bible.

On the other hand, many Protestants have been misled by anti-Catholic authors who have invented historical connections between Roman Catholicism and ancient pagan religions (such as Alexander Hislop’s “Two Babylons”). Not that I am defending everything that Roman Catholics around the world believe or do in the name of their religion. Nevertheless, I would not be surprised if the percentage of Roman Catholics who actually please God by walking with Him every day is at least as high as the percentage of Protestants who do so. Although I personally disapprove of praying to saints, I cannot believe that it is any worse than self-righteousness and hypocrisy.

You are wrong about me (actually, the church where I was Senior Pastor at the time) being “kicked out” of CC on the grounds that we were “emergent.” By the way, mijadedios, your “dove club” label is an uncharitable stab, to say the least, despite how deeply you feel CC deserves your ridicule. Anyway, that misinformation, sadly, came from my Uncle Paul. On at least three different occasions I carefully explained to him why neither I nor CBC were emergent. But he wasn’t listening to me because he had another agenda. Since he seemed uncomfortable in my meeting with him and had difficulty getting around to the point for wanting to see me, I asked him if it would be easier for him if I just removed CBC from the CC affiliation. He was instantly relieved and said answered, “Yes.”

Paul and a couple of his buddies at CCOF (during that period of time) had heard rumors about me and CBC that they never sought to substantiate for themselves by contacting me or visiting the church. They led a campaign to malign our work and to get us removed from the CC affiliation. I did not resist them, because it was something that mattered more to them than it did to me. Years ago, God impressed upon my heart that He is not into “brand” names, that the only name He endorses is the name above all names–that of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

One of my uncle’s friends went on to slander me on blogs and in print, accusing me of spending a sabbatical in a monastery (I didn’t) and returning to my church to hang icons so that people could pray to them (never happened). There were thousands of people who attended CBC over the years, so it would be easy enough to find just one person to corroborate that author’s claim. But no one ever will, because I have never believed in praying to icons and never taught anyone to pray to icons.

As far as Lonnie goes, why don’t you talk to people who knew him in order to get at the truth? Why do you think you can learn everything you need to know from video clips, articles, and other blogs? Do you let other people read the Bible for you or do you read it for yourself? Do you take just bits and pieces of the Bible and dismiss the rest? If you don’t trust others enough to let them tell you what the Bible says, why do you give them your full trust when it comes to other Christians–Christians you could easily contact or whose close friends and family are reachable? Why are you so quick to find flaws in others and then rush to condemn them? Really! Do you believe this pleases God? In fact, among the things that God hates are “A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.” (KJV, on David’s behalf–my first Bible and the version I read through cover-to-cover before reading through any other. It is also my dad’s favorite and that which he most frequently quotes verbatim.)

Lonnie did not consider himself a homosexual and he believed that homosexual sex was a sin. He never endorsed homosexuality. When I first heard of his past (i.e., prior to his conversion to Jesus Christ), he had renounced it and considered himself a “new creature in Christ.” He was married to Connie at the time and he certainly did not continue “to act out openly in gay relationships throughout his life” (I find this statement of N4TM’s especially offensive, because it is an outright lie). I witnessed times when Lonnie prayed over other people that they would be delivered from their temptation to engage in homosexual sex.

Lonnie and I did not remain friends through the years, mostly because we got on two different tracks in ministry with two different emphases. I was not his greatest fan, but I didn’t criticize him either. After all is said and done, Lonnie was a child of God who struggled.

What do we call it when someone attributes motives to another person without having an accurate (or even close to accurate) understanding of the details? Again, it is remarkable to me that Christians behave the way they do, assuming that because they’re convinced their doctrine is more orthodox than another person’s, they are justified in making up stories or motives about that person. What happened with our weekly meetings in the Fromm’s home was no “publicity stunt.” A few corrections:

Chuck Fromm is the publisher of Worship Leader Magazine, not Leadership (Journal). He did not “found” Maranatha! Music, but he did run it for approximately thirty-five years.

Chuck and Stephanie have had many Bible studies in their home. It was a neighbor’s complaint about our meetings there that involved the city government, which imposed a fine on the Fromms for hosting weekly meetings. The Fromm’s initial attempts to meet with the city government and work this out were ignored and then shut down. That is when the Pacific Justice Institute got involved (I don’t know what the ACLJ is, but I certainly don’t have access to it–or to the ACLU). The lawyers with the Pacific Justice Institute defend the rights of churches all over the U.S. (and were also strong proponents of Prop. 8). They had won a similar case in San Diego county the previous year. They took the issue to the press and within a few weeks the city issued an apology, admitted that their initial response to our meetings was too aggressive, promised to review the law on their books (prohibiting weekly meetings in homes), and the whole thing was quickly settled out of court. It’s true that the Pacific Justice Institute was interested in carrying the case further, hoping to get a landmark decision in a higher court, but that wasn’t what we wanted. In fact, we had already moved our Bible study by the time the city submitted its apology. If it had been a publicity stunt, we certainly would have carried it further. However, we never exploited the media attention that arrived at the Fromm’s front door and I never consented to an interview. From the start, I wanted peace with the city.

Good Grief, mijadedios! I don’t know what else to say, except that it’s simply rotten of you to glibly refer to this ordeal as a publicity stunt. For what purpose would we do such a thing? What got publicized? The name of our small community of believers was never mentioned. If you had any idea of what the Fromm’s suffered from this whole thing or if you had even a meager understanding of their love for the Lord Jesus Christ and devotion to His people, I doubt you would smugly dismiss this unhappy season of their lives as a publicity stunt. However, God who works all things together for good, used this experience to introduce the Fromm’s to city hall and they are now on good terms with the city’s leaders. In fact, Chuck Fromm is friends with the Mayor who is also a born again Christian.

Yes, I’ve sat in the radio station with my dad a few times to answer questions on Pastor’s Perspective over the last couple of years. Each time, it was at Dad’s request when Don Stewart was out of town. Whatever it may mean to you that my dad asked me to be a guest on his show, please present to me one instance when an answer I gave contradicted the clear teaching of the Bible. If you can prove that I misinterpreted the Scriptures, I will return to this blog site, apologize, and change my view. If you cannot, then why make a big deal about me going on the air with my father? Also, if you discover that I provided a biblical answer to someone that reflected both a good understanding of God’s word and compassion for the caller, would you consider apologizing to me?

unhihodedios

N4TM’s response:

I think the above, “unhihodedios,” was an attempt to say I’m not a child of God. Mija de Dios means Daughter of God. *It just occurred to me that this was Chuck Jr signing ‘Un hijo de dios’ translation: “A child of God.” Sorry, I don’t speak spanish so it took me a while to figure that one out.* I appreciate all you have to say here and I’m grateful to hear from you. It is more than I’ve heard from anyone I’ve written about. I have a lot to consider in what you are saying above and will take time to read through over and over and truly understand and discern the obvious aggravation from my accusations from the truth you are trying to convey. I’m glad you took the time to address the issues I brought up not just in the “Straight Ally for Gay Christians” piece I wrote, but you are also, very clearly, reading and addressing many posts I’ve written on Calvary Chapel including posts on Chuck From and Lonnie Frisbee. May I say that I do not harbor any personal hatred for you or even your father for that matter. What I do find heart wrenching and discouraging is the false teaching that’s been promoted for years, the lies that have been perpetuated, the people who have been used and abused by the CC system and much much more. But I am not about “Discrediting” or “Slandering” you. I was calling it as I see, yes with the limited information I have that I gather online, through hours of video, transcripts, personal experience, etc. Again I say, “Thank You,” and I will consider all the things you present here. I may take time to edit this reply after reading through your comment more carefully or I may chose to leave the issue alone, it depends on how the Lord leads.

Calvary Chapel’s ungodly “Seat of Moses” Government Continues unabated

What does the Bible have to say about “Moses’ seat?”

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of  men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” Matt.23:1-13

From Calvary Chapel Distinctives:

WE BELIEVE that the church government should be simplistic rather than a complex bureaucracy, and we depend on the Holy Spirit to lead, rather than on fleshly promotion. We recognize there are various biblical models for governing a local church body; however, we follow the biblical model of a pastor-led church as demonstrated by God’s leading the nation of Israel through Moses, and by Christ leading His flock through pastors of the early church. Source: here not an endorsement

CCOF is now CCA (Calvary Chapel Association)

Here’s the “Leadership Council” page

Here’s the “Regional Leadership” Map page

I left CC and I’m happy that I am no longer in that “Movement.” (That was me being kind) They still meet: 2012 Pastors Convention (click here), they still have their circuit speakers and “experts” defining the end of the world and who’s Apostate (Rick Warren-but not BFF Greg Laurie or ancient Jedi night Chuck Smith who mentored them) and who’s not: Greg Laurie, Skip Heitzig, Bob Coy, Gayle Erwin and Chuck Smith. I’ve said so much on CC already it feels like a moot point to report on them any further. There are people, beside myself, who have survived the throws of such a cult and to my fellow survivors I say, “Praise the Lord! You are free!” To those who are still engulfed in the “CC Movement” I pass no judgement on you (unless you know how deep and seedy things are there and continue to sit under such falsity) one day you may find yourself seeking the whole truth about this “Movement” and you’ll find your way back to this website and others who’ve trudged the road less traveled and tried to shed light on the darkness within CC.

In the meantime CC continues to grow (wide is the gate).  It’s not unusual that a “Movement” such as this has yet to cease from existence. Jesus warned us there would be false teachers, false Christs, and so it has been since before and since Jesus walked this earth. The truth does always win out~ the men who are sitting on the seat exalted of their own accord will be made known and it’ll be God’s doing not N4TM.  The further and longer it has been since I left CC I am less aware of what CC is up to, and I like it that way!

The Demise of Calvary Chapel

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2011/08/lawsuit_claims_calvary_chapel.php#more

Lawsuit Claims Calvary Chapel Allowed Shuffling of Pedophile Employee from Diamond Bar to Idaho

The lawsuit, filed by an Idaho law firm but featuring the muscle of Washington lawyer Tim Kosnoff (whose tenacity in going against pedo-protectors of all denominations was just told in a book by my publishing company, Scribner–just found that out while Googling!) combines two separate lawsuits filed against Calvary Chapel accusing them of harboring Iglesias. This one names the Big Calvary in the suit: Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, which is actually in SanTana, and accuses them and North Country Calvary pastor Robert Davis of “negligently, recklessly and/or fraudulently conceal[ing] from the general public, law enforcement, its parishioners, plaintiffs and their parents its knowledge that Iglesias was and is a pedophile, child predator, and child molester.” Kosnoff isn’t asking for much–$10,000 per client, because that’s all that Idaho allows in such cases (a direct byproduct of Brownie’s Idaho days, no doubt) but will try to ask for punitive damages at a later date and is asking for a jury trial.
Iglesias is currently in jail for molesting two other boys in 2003. What did Calvary Chapel founder-head Chuck Smith know about child molesters within his flock, and when?

PDF FILES OF THE ACTUAL LAWSUIT: http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/larabee-et-al-v.-costa-mesa-et-al.pdf

image

Pastor Raul Ries Calvary Chapel Golden Springs (Diamond Bar, CA)

http://northcountrychapel.com/images/bobdavis.jpg Pastor Bob Davis (North County Idaho Calvary Chapel)

http://northcountrychapel.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nccyouth.jpg

Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, Calvary Chapel Golden Springs, Calvary Chapel North, continue to hold services, teach God’s Word, hold youth events, etc.

Matthew 18:6-11
6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.     7 “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!   8 “If
your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it
from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
9 If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

   10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.11 [For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.]

Another link of interest: Is Calvary Chapel Head Chuck Smith covering for a Child Beater? via OC WEEKLY